Mar 18·edited Mar 19Liked by Holly Berkley Fletcher
I was very blessed (no pun intended) to have been raised by very progressive parents in 1970s Texas, no less! My mother went to Presbyterian services regularly, my dad abstained from organized religion entirely. But they encouraged me to attend different churches with friends and neighbors, and see what spoke to me. I did exactly that, and it turned out to be Buddhism that gave me the most peace and comfort. After my mother died from cancer when I was 12, I was so angry at God for taking her away from us. It was discovering Buddhism and karma at 15 that helped me turn back to God. And even though I think Jesus is my favorite teacher, it's Buddha that was my greatest one.
I can't imagine what I would be like today without my parents' amazing gift to me. And the bravery you have inside to leave such a frightening institution... wow! You truly are inspiring, Holly, and I'm rooting for you all the way!
Sarah was featured on this mornings Sunday Weekend edition. I am so tired of the Christian right. I understand the desire to avoid the temptations of the flesh, we were taught that in Catholic school too - also about female modesty. But I grew up in the 1950s and 60s. I don't see how kids can be isolated from the internet. Even TV ads show frank displays of underwear, of erectile dysfunction etc.
In the choir where I sing, one member home schooled her kids. But now as they live adult lives, they have drifted away. Of course, NJ has a different culture from America's heartland. But I assume that the edifice of Christianity will disappear within a generation.
Excellent article! The deconstruction experience should be expected to be difficult and emotionally wracking - mine was/is. For those of us struggling with deconversion and looking for consolation and, more importantly, stategies for interacting with family members still deep in the evangelical (or other intense religions') embrace, I recommend highly Drew McCoy's YouTube channel, Genetically Modified Skeptic. He is a young exvangelical who left that faith/life after having spent all of his sentient years through Bible college deep in the fold. He provides reasons for his deconversion, including that it was the very skill of discernment, strongly encouraged for years, that when focused on his own faith community beliefs drove his decision to leave. He encourages calm, respectful conversations (listening and speaking) when confronted by family members' questions. His careful explanations, respectful approach, and level-headed analysis has kept me listening for the weeks since I discovered his site. I think he and you, Holly, would get along very well. We are all on the same team here.
I married into a Foursquare family. Neither of us were churchgoing when we met. I always figured that Foursquare was part of the Evangelical tradition but now I’m not so sure. She stopped going long ago but still believes and has fond memories. I've asked some questions but it's been so long, and she didn't get deep into the theology anyway, so I'm turning to the experts for help
Questions:
1. Is Foursquare Evangelical? I figure that all Christians are supposed to evangelize, but what makes a Church get the Evangelical label?
2. Do you have to have a conversion experience to think of yourself as Evangelical?
3. Fundamentalism and Evangelical -are they interchangeable?
4. Foursquare came out of the Pentecostal churches. Does that mean something different than Evangelical and Fundamentalism?
5. Authority - can you believe in the authority of the Bible and Church but also reject most kinds of authority (that is not based in secular law) and think of yourself as Evangelical or Fundamentalist? For example, if you are a headstrong person but are a believer, does that put you in conflict with spiritual authority. I grew up LDS (until around 16) and they require (at that time) a woman submit to their husband's authority. To my wife that just sounds like a terrible way to live. Submitting to God is one thing, but submitting to some rando at a church or some dumb guy is out of the question.
Well I wish I could do a white board here :) I will draw you a mental Venn. So first of all, 2 broad categories of American Protestantism, evangelical (basically conservative theology) and mainline (liberal). Several denominations themselves are split into these two (Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodist, Episcopal-Anglican all have conservative and liberal varieties these days). Evangelicals encompass a huge variety of things and even particular theology, but the unifying features in my view anyway are 1) an inerrantist view of scripture (I have a whole post on this--the one about Russell Moore)/the elevation of the Bible over every other source of wisdom 2) a personalist faith--you'll often hear evangelicals talking about "a personal relationship with Jesus;" This is usually tied to a conversion experience, ie Asking Jesus to be my personal savior, although some evangelical denominations aren't as focused on conversion experiences 3) A very exclusivist view of salvation and an emphasis on the afterlife--not only are non-Christians going to hell, even the wrong kind/a less committed kind of Christian is, too 4) A sense of mission/emphasis on evangelism/sharing one's faith as important of converting others/saving souls.
Within the evangelical circle, as I said, there are many different traditions and denominations and specific theologies. Pentecostalism (and 4 square is a form) is within that framework, because it fits all 4 of the criteria above. However, Pentecostals also emphasize spiritual gifts and charismatic expression like speaking in tongues. Other evangelicals don't do this and even look askance at it.
As far as the overlap between evangelicals and fundamentalism--that is a matter of debate. Personally, I consider all evangelicals fundamentalists to some degree, based on their attempt to strictly interpret scripture and their few of it as The Authority. This foundation has often/usually led to some rather crazy stances that would definitely be fundamentalist (Young earth creationism for instance). But, again, I think anyone who claims to hold an inerrantist view of Scripture is a fundamentalist because that is inerrancy's natural destination. It also easily bleeds into conservative social/political views, since it is an attempt to apply an ancient book to the modern world. It is by definition a retrogressive bent.
Authority--This is a tricky issue because evangelical traditions derive from the Protestant Reformation-then-Great Awakening=the primacy of the believer, which was an anti-authoritarian idea at the time. In addition, many evangelical traditions are congregationalist, that is there is no hierarchical church structure. But what is now American evangelicalism more directly grew out of southern Christianity, which imposed new ideas of authority (like inerrancy) onto American Protestantism with the aim of preserving white male authority as the basis for social order and power (and slavery). And thus, to fit in well in American evangelicalism, submission to authority is probably essential, because the whole belief system is based on the authority of scripture and one's leaders' interpretations of it. I grew up being taught that what God wanted was "clear as day" in the Bible, you just followed the Bible, and if you didn't, you were in rebellion. Of course, that was a fig leaf for the authority of church leaders and denominational powers, since the Bible is not actually clear and their power depends on everyone following their interpretation of it. So I don't know if I answered your question on authority exactly, but in my view--submission to authority is a huge part of evangelical life.
I know almost nothing about the LDS, but my impression is there is some real overlap with evangelicalism in terms of ideology/culture if not theological belief (evangelicals do not consider Mormons to be Christians, so there's that).
Thank you so much for shining a light on this. Dana Gould interviewed author Christina Ward for her new book “Holy Food: How Cults, Communes, and Religious Movements Influenced What We Eat”
They spent a few minutes on the Pentecostal churches in L.A. and their relationship with food (soup kitchens) during the Great Depression out in the wild and wooly west.
I was very blessed (no pun intended) to have been raised by very progressive parents in 1970s Texas, no less! My mother went to Presbyterian services regularly, my dad abstained from organized religion entirely. But they encouraged me to attend different churches with friends and neighbors, and see what spoke to me. I did exactly that, and it turned out to be Buddhism that gave me the most peace and comfort. After my mother died from cancer when I was 12, I was so angry at God for taking her away from us. It was discovering Buddhism and karma at 15 that helped me turn back to God. And even though I think Jesus is my favorite teacher, it's Buddha that was my greatest one.
I can't imagine what I would be like today without my parents' amazing gift to me. And the bravery you have inside to leave such a frightening institution... wow! You truly are inspiring, Holly, and I'm rooting for you all the way!
Sarah was featured on this mornings Sunday Weekend edition. I am so tired of the Christian right. I understand the desire to avoid the temptations of the flesh, we were taught that in Catholic school too - also about female modesty. But I grew up in the 1950s and 60s. I don't see how kids can be isolated from the internet. Even TV ads show frank displays of underwear, of erectile dysfunction etc.
In the choir where I sing, one member home schooled her kids. But now as they live adult lives, they have drifted away. Of course, NJ has a different culture from America's heartland. But I assume that the edifice of Christianity will disappear within a generation.
Excellent article! The deconstruction experience should be expected to be difficult and emotionally wracking - mine was/is. For those of us struggling with deconversion and looking for consolation and, more importantly, stategies for interacting with family members still deep in the evangelical (or other intense religions') embrace, I recommend highly Drew McCoy's YouTube channel, Genetically Modified Skeptic. He is a young exvangelical who left that faith/life after having spent all of his sentient years through Bible college deep in the fold. He provides reasons for his deconversion, including that it was the very skill of discernment, strongly encouraged for years, that when focused on his own faith community beliefs drove his decision to leave. He encourages calm, respectful conversations (listening and speaking) when confronted by family members' questions. His careful explanations, respectful approach, and level-headed analysis has kept me listening for the weeks since I discovered his site. I think he and you, Holly, would get along very well. We are all on the same team here.
This was really interesting. I have so many questions now.
Ask away!
I married into a Foursquare family. Neither of us were churchgoing when we met. I always figured that Foursquare was part of the Evangelical tradition but now I’m not so sure. She stopped going long ago but still believes and has fond memories. I've asked some questions but it's been so long, and she didn't get deep into the theology anyway, so I'm turning to the experts for help
Questions:
1. Is Foursquare Evangelical? I figure that all Christians are supposed to evangelize, but what makes a Church get the Evangelical label?
2. Do you have to have a conversion experience to think of yourself as Evangelical?
3. Fundamentalism and Evangelical -are they interchangeable?
4. Foursquare came out of the Pentecostal churches. Does that mean something different than Evangelical and Fundamentalism?
5. Authority - can you believe in the authority of the Bible and Church but also reject most kinds of authority (that is not based in secular law) and think of yourself as Evangelical or Fundamentalist? For example, if you are a headstrong person but are a believer, does that put you in conflict with spiritual authority. I grew up LDS (until around 16) and they require (at that time) a woman submit to their husband's authority. To my wife that just sounds like a terrible way to live. Submitting to God is one thing, but submitting to some rando at a church or some dumb guy is out of the question.
Thanks again Holly
Well I wish I could do a white board here :) I will draw you a mental Venn. So first of all, 2 broad categories of American Protestantism, evangelical (basically conservative theology) and mainline (liberal). Several denominations themselves are split into these two (Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodist, Episcopal-Anglican all have conservative and liberal varieties these days). Evangelicals encompass a huge variety of things and even particular theology, but the unifying features in my view anyway are 1) an inerrantist view of scripture (I have a whole post on this--the one about Russell Moore)/the elevation of the Bible over every other source of wisdom 2) a personalist faith--you'll often hear evangelicals talking about "a personal relationship with Jesus;" This is usually tied to a conversion experience, ie Asking Jesus to be my personal savior, although some evangelical denominations aren't as focused on conversion experiences 3) A very exclusivist view of salvation and an emphasis on the afterlife--not only are non-Christians going to hell, even the wrong kind/a less committed kind of Christian is, too 4) A sense of mission/emphasis on evangelism/sharing one's faith as important of converting others/saving souls.
Within the evangelical circle, as I said, there are many different traditions and denominations and specific theologies. Pentecostalism (and 4 square is a form) is within that framework, because it fits all 4 of the criteria above. However, Pentecostals also emphasize spiritual gifts and charismatic expression like speaking in tongues. Other evangelicals don't do this and even look askance at it.
As far as the overlap between evangelicals and fundamentalism--that is a matter of debate. Personally, I consider all evangelicals fundamentalists to some degree, based on their attempt to strictly interpret scripture and their few of it as The Authority. This foundation has often/usually led to some rather crazy stances that would definitely be fundamentalist (Young earth creationism for instance). But, again, I think anyone who claims to hold an inerrantist view of Scripture is a fundamentalist because that is inerrancy's natural destination. It also easily bleeds into conservative social/political views, since it is an attempt to apply an ancient book to the modern world. It is by definition a retrogressive bent.
Authority--This is a tricky issue because evangelical traditions derive from the Protestant Reformation-then-Great Awakening=the primacy of the believer, which was an anti-authoritarian idea at the time. In addition, many evangelical traditions are congregationalist, that is there is no hierarchical church structure. But what is now American evangelicalism more directly grew out of southern Christianity, which imposed new ideas of authority (like inerrancy) onto American Protestantism with the aim of preserving white male authority as the basis for social order and power (and slavery). And thus, to fit in well in American evangelicalism, submission to authority is probably essential, because the whole belief system is based on the authority of scripture and one's leaders' interpretations of it. I grew up being taught that what God wanted was "clear as day" in the Bible, you just followed the Bible, and if you didn't, you were in rebellion. Of course, that was a fig leaf for the authority of church leaders and denominational powers, since the Bible is not actually clear and their power depends on everyone following their interpretation of it. So I don't know if I answered your question on authority exactly, but in my view--submission to authority is a huge part of evangelical life.
I know almost nothing about the LDS, but my impression is there is some real overlap with evangelicalism in terms of ideology/culture if not theological belief (evangelicals do not consider Mormons to be Christians, so there's that).
Thank you so much for shining a light on this. Dana Gould interviewed author Christina Ward for her new book “Holy Food: How Cults, Communes, and Religious Movements Influenced What We Eat”
They spent a few minutes on the Pentecostal churches in L.A. and their relationship with food (soup kitchens) during the Great Depression out in the wild and wooly west.