Adding to this discussion which is so needed, the “liberal” churches are just as smarmy as the evangelicals and prime for taking by narcissists and, yes, sociopaths. I was married to a narcissist for over 30 years, a church music director/worship leader. He was charming, funny, smart, and seemingly caring, but that was only as long as he was getting the attention and adoration he felt he deserved, particularly from church women. They all loved him and many of them fell into bed with him (unbeknownst to me for decades). He had two dealings with women; either he was seducing them or, if they saw through him, destroying their credibility. When everything finally came out in an incredibly public and humiliating way for ME, I finally walked away. Even then, in months and months of therapy to try and understand how I could have been taken in so completely, I was defending him to my therapist. “Oh, he’s not that bad. He really intends to be a good person. He just makes poor choices, Yada, yada yada.” My therapist stared at me and said, “In other words he’s not an a*^hole. He just acts like one.” BOOM!
Sociopaths exist and can thrive in many different environments. But I do think there's something especially vulnerable about a culture build around a narrow belief set and one that actively discourages critical thought (ie evangelicalism)
I heartily agree. I was in that culture for many years. Churches of many ilks are a breeding and feeding ground for people who prey on others. I’m out, I’m remarried to a wonderful man, and haven’t set foot in a church in years. I think I’m a lot healthier now.
I don't think a "liberal" church is insulated from sociopaths. Just like burglars go around looking for unlocked windows, sociopaths look for high trust institutions. Churches, with their whole reason for being based on forgiveness, trust, kindness, love, etc. are a target rich environment for narcissists and sociopaths.
One protective factor may be that in liberal denominations, women can and do lead both as pastors and lay leaders so one group of adults is not automatically subjugated to another group. You also have some accountability to the wider denomination--you can't just waltz in, declare yourself a pastor and lead a congregation--you have to go to seminary and you have to go through a process to be ordained. In my experience, there are and have been bad people leading congregations, but the blast zone has been relatively smaller---leading a church of a couple hundred people just isn't as attractive to a real narcissist when they could go lead a megachurch and get famous. The downside though is bad pastors can get away with some damaging shit and go on to pastor another congregation because "forgiveness."
I agree up to a point. I have a seminary degree, worked in mainline churches as did he. this ex worked for medium and extremely large churches and he still managed to manipulate and seduce and harass with no accountability. He was allowed to simply quietly resign and NO ONE called him out. NO ONE. After everything exploded he went on with his life and I was the one who had to pick up the pieces of my life. Anyway, my point is that not enough people SPEAK OUT. When it comes up, as with Holly’s piece, I do the speaking up for those of us who were used and thrown aside. I stopped being The Good Wife about 20 yearz ago, LOL.
“this ex worked for medium and extremely large churches and he still managed to manipulate and seduce and harass with no accountability. He was allowed to simply quietly resign and NO ONE called him out. NO ONE.”
I had what I thought was just heartbreak and humiliation over a congregant serving a minor ministry role in a mainline congregation — until I found out that his behavior toward me had just been a sliver of a larger abusive pattern that had already gotten him kicked out of several churches. I was not important enough to warn, apparently?
Fortunately, my romantic heartbreak revolved around my proving less “easy” than he expected, probably — a lucky escape, really. The spiritual heartbreak of church not being a place of shelter from such manipulation was pretty bad, though.
Mainline churches’ greater permissiveness about sex has seemed to cut both ways, at least before #MeToo. On the one hand, earlier sex-education among minors in the congregation leaves them better able to describe abuse and therefore harder targets. That’s good!
On the other hand, lower general expectations of even the pretense of chastity, especially for anyone the least bit “artsy”, can make a pattern of abuse toward non-minors harder to spot. “You’re artsy, he’s artsy. Everyone knows what the artsy are like. Official church teaching might still be, ‘eh, try to wait till marriage,’ but it’s not like anyone takes it that seriously. You’re of age. Why so serious?”
My problem was, fortunately, not with a music minister. As a church musician myself, I have some idea of how bad that could get…
There’s a music prof I know of, who like many musicians, does music ministry on the side because it’s a gig. I haven’t pried much, but he seems to have made himself a… reputation. I once brought a restaurant to a standstill by blurting out a bit louder than I meant, “WELL, THAT WAS RAPEY OF HIM!” in response to a story about his, uh, charms. His “charms” seem not to have been a bar to church employment, though.
Aw, Midge. I can feel your pain. You know, my whole life was church. My dad, a really good man, was a church choir director and I have a Masters Degree in Church Music. It was all an integral part of my life and when I married my now ex I THOUGHT we were partners in music ministry. He needed me. I know that now. I was a prominent soloist in our metropolitan area and my family was a known musical family. He just kind of stepped right in, and I began believing he was more important than I was and….well….a recipe for a narcissistic disaster. Thing is, I also know how bad things with musicians, profs included, can get. I had avoided all of that stuff up until I met my ex. I was 27 for crying out loud and had sidestepped more narcissists than I care to remember, LOL. Anyway, they abound in churches, and particularly in music circles, and I am well away from all of that. When I left my marriage, I gave it all up. Haven’t sung in 20 years and it still gives me heartache and a feeling of loss but I am much happier now. I hope your life is a good one, if now now, some time soon. ❤️
“Haven’t sung in 20 years and it still gives me heartache and a feeling of loss but I am much happier now. I hope your life is a good one, if now now, some time soon.”
Spouse-wise, I’ve done well. Kid-wise, too — though I worry I’m letting my kids down. Body-wise, I was born a bit of a factory reject, nothing too obvious, but my body’s a place of mostly low-level discomfort and awkward episodes of incapacitation. When I was younger, more of that got blamed on my psychology than was accurate, intensifying my shyness.
Guys I knew wanted “a shy girl” to keep their secrets, which was mostly positive and platonic, sometimes an awkward bid at romance from guys who were probably painfully shy themselves, and only that once — alas, in church — heartbreakingly manipulative. (Other heartbreak is so wholesome by comparison.)
As I read more about church sexual abuse, about “purity” being abused to enable rather than restrain predation, I feel more lucky to have been raised in a more egalitarian, cosmopolitan milieu, despite its own post-Freudian excesses.
I admire your fortitude in finding happiness away from singing when it was once your profession, and from church when it had seemed your vocation.
The world is full of wonders, not all of which are music and many of which are not confined to church. I made what I hoped was the sensible choice to study math rather than music or theology, but I find staying away from music ministry, which I’ve had to do since COVID, tough.
Last Good Friday, once again too sick to visit church to hear “my choir” sing, I began composing my own crucifixion oratorio for them. I miss them that much. On the upside, I’m a modestly competent amateur composer, and the church’s musical needs in this respect don’t exceed my ability. The downside: composing anything for others to perform, especially unasked for, has that embarrassing “narcissistic” quality.
Oh well, at least the guys leading music ministry are gayly married to each other and won’t interpret a gal’s “I wrote this for you” as a come-on! It never is, coming from me, but straight guys don’t reliably know that.
I envy your creativity! Good on you! I continued to teach music but in a private school and retired 5 years ago. Then I took up writing which I have always loved. I have had several short stories published in several anthologies, one in Great Britain. My present husband and I just celebrated 17 lovely, loving years together. He is my rock, a deep man who is NOT narcissistic in ANY way. I tell people all the time that sometimes we can be surprised by joy when we least expect it. Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas, whatever! ❤️❤️
I don’t know you. I don’t rate to say this. But you need to start singing again. Even if it’s just being out at home. 👊❤️🙏
If it will help, I’ll tell you God told me to tell you that!! 😂 (Okay, that was horrible church humor -- and a weapon willed against me and so many others -- but seriously, please start singing again. Or at least consider it. Please. ❤️❤️❤️❤️🙏🙏🙏)
While I appreciate your caring comment, I am 78 years old and my singing days are over. The stress of what I went through, the connection of my voice with that, took my voice and my joy in singing. Besides, I promised myself many many years ago that I would stop singing before it got to the place where people wished I would. 🥰🥰
I grew up with a step-dad who had Narcissistic Personality Disorder. He "rescued" my mother & me. When I was a child, my mother told me all he wanted was to be admired, and if I would do that, it would go easier for me. I had no trouble seeing what Trump was. As a church pastor now, I do not get it, how ostensibly Christian people could believe the things they do about Trump, how they can't see right through him. Experience is a brutal teacher, but thorough
I'm so sorry, living with an NPD person can really mess with your head. I'm sure it's been a long journey for you. Painful but valuable experience to share with your congregation, no doubt. Thank you for sharing.
Having been married to one for over 30 years, I can totally sympathize. And bc don’t get me started on Trump and his cultic idolizers who claim to be Christian. You CANNOT be a real follower of Jesus and worship Trump and America the way they do. You just can’t.
Trump clearly falls into the sociopath/malignant narcissist bucket, but I don't think you can really understand the extent of his success unless you think in terms of spiritual forces of wickedness or darkness. If you read the temptation narratives in the Bible--the one where the snake shows up and talks Eve into eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge, and the one where Satan shows up to tempt Jesus in the wilderness, it is hard for me not to think about Trump being the tempter. He's just so effective at getting people to give into their worst impulses. He loves money and power and all that, but he loves pitting people against each other and getting them to tear each other down even more than he loves power.
I probably sound like a religious nut, but I promise you I am not--hard to be too nutty if you are an Episcopalian--but even if you are an unbeliever, the Bible has some great insights into the human condition, and the idea of Trump as a destroyer and an opposer works on both the spiritual and the practical level.
I love your perspective. A friend of mine from church was talking with a woman who got off onto the subject of politics and said, “Trump is a man of God!“ My friend’s appalled reply was to blurt, “I think Trump is a tool of Satan!” And I think my friend is quite right.
Trump is the wolf in sheep's clothing. The Bible is riddled with references to evil dressed up as good and how humans fall for it over and over and over. For us who are not tempted by him, it's hard to understand how people can be taken in.
I too firmly believe that trump is so far removed from normal human behavior that it's hard for me to see him as being human at all. No natural affections, no pets, no fellowship, absolutely no humor -- repellant to those who have failed to fall under his spell. I pray that, as a nation, we learn enough from this experience that, over time, we can absorb the lessons learned and become more vigilant on the one hand, and more grateful on the other.
Trump himself loves to quote the poem, "The Snake," comparing himself to a snake that blames its rescuer for her death at the snake's hands (or fangs).
So creepy! I dated someone who illustrated his character by relaying the story of the kindly frog who carries the scorpion across the river as a favor, and the scorpion stings him anyway after the lift. That's been a hard lesson for me to learn. Holly is such a gifted writer.
My husband and I grew up in NY while Trump was doing whatever he could to land on Page 6. He was considered a joke. So when he came down that escalator, it seemed crazy to us. And as it looked like he’d be the nominee, we kept wondering what the heck is wrong with all you people? Can’t you see he’s a narcissistic fraud? As you note, along with our national inability to imagine such shamelessness, we also seem to be severely lacking in the ability to engage in critical thinking. I think we were ripe for someone like him. It’s kind of surprising to me that we haven’t had this happen more often.
This is just such an insightful article. Thank you for sharing it.
And I'd probably pay good money to just talk faith and religion with you someday lol.
Speaking for myself, I am back in love with my faith, but I've been stomped by the church enough to know to be wary, questioning, etc.
Yet there is no doubt that Donald Trump has nearly single-handedly done more than nearly destroy our country. He had pretty much destroyed evangelical churches. (See Tim Alberta's experience -- or just go visit your nearest one lol)
And the horrifically frustrating thing about all this is that now that I'm back insanely in love with God and trying to walk the path, it just blows my mind how anyone can read the Bible for long (at all) and turn their worship and focus from God and the Bible to politics/FoxNews and Trump.
It's borderline blasphemy, and I can't help but think that God must weep that so many have been led astray by this worship and idolatry of Trump.
I'm still trying to decide whether to read it. I've heard him on two full podcast interviews, and read almost all his articles for the past year or two, so do you think there's still enough meat on the bones to make it worth reading?
What a terrible story of his with how he was treated at his Dad's funeral. (My word, can I relate to that kind of church pressure and antagonism... Not that you have time or are probably interested, but in the long-shot chance that you are: https://stanrmitchell8.substack.com/about)
I would recommend that you read the book. Usually you can get the meat if you listen to the author do the podcast circuit, but in this particular case the book has layers that just don't show up even with the long and careful interviews of Tim that I heard on the Bulwark, the Dispatch, etc.
I did the audiobook which was narrated by the author. Worth every penny and every minute.
Nothing borderline about it, Stan. What is going on in so much of evangelicalism is heretical and downright idolatrous. The Body of Christ has been grievously wounded.
Thank you for putting words to what so many of us have felt intuitively but have been unable to express. From here on, when someone asks me why I’m so opposed to another Trump term, I will refer them to this post. Thanks for having the courage to put this into the world for the rest of us.
Precisely. This post nails it! And I think it's because it's done obliquely. It starts out with a family situation, which so many of us can relate to (or have seen).
Thanks for this, Holly. I think most psychiatrists, counselors & therapists who saw thru Trump felt bound by their professional oaths not to diagnose someone who was not a patient (Goldwater Rule). I know some of these folks later signed and circulated a letter naming Trump as mentally unstable and begging voters not to support him. The letter was reprinted in some newspapers and online.
In my experience, one ‘tell’ is if one is conversing, all the words are ostensibly normal, but as the interaction continues, one gets an inescapable sense of dread that something is radically wrong with the interaction and the person.
Fell into the trap twice, needed therapy on both occasions. Fortunately, the second time I recovered more quickly because I had a much better understanding of what was being done to me. Now, when I recognize a set of behaviors showing themselves, I do my best to disengage as soon as possible. And I finally married a good woman who doesn't behave like a sociopath. Therapy for the win!
Okay, well, here are the 2 things that I learned growing up that I still think are true: 1. you have to learn how to recognize a true a**hole (when my father taught me this, he was not the self-censoring type on this one). Everything that you described may have a lot of other terms, but a man who is most of those things is an a**hole; a man who is all of those things is a "perfect a**hole." Do everything possible not to deal with them as they are "vexatious to the spirit" (from the Desiderata). 2. When anyone tells you they are one of "God's Chosen," one of the true believers, use Matthew 25: 31-40 as a checklist/ measuring stick. If they don't measure out, they aren't what they say they are whether they think they are or not. And here is the 3rd thing I learned since I have grown up: women have become just as good at being a**holes as men; times have changed since my father was alive.
That, but also until the mass entry of women into the labor force in the early 1970s it wasn't as publicly visible. But with increasing opportunity and authority came that visibility.
I can attest, this is truth! Interesting that those of us personally impacted jump into research and learn the scary stuff. But those who have not personally experienced it have a hard time understanding. It almost makes me want a lot more people to experience it (not really, but you know what I mean!), so we have a large army of people standing against those causing such menace 😕
As I read this I had another thought. Please forgive my cynicism--I’m not religious so I’m probably showing my bias here--but I think seeing a bunch of hypocrisy from religious leaders over the last couple of decades primed the pump for someone like Trump to co-opt the evangelicals too. They were ready and willing to forgive him each time he showed that he doesn’t share their values. The Access Hollywood tape, the 3 wives, “Two Corinthians,” and on and on, because they’d seen people like Jim Baker and others. And, let’s face it, admitting you’ve been wrong is hard because of that whole shame thing, right?
Hearing some of your all stories reminds me of some I've had the misfortune to experience. One who ended up marrying and murdering another friend, one who was a "friend" who turned into an evil force when I wasn't acting, thinking, ortreating her exactly as she thought I should. If I was describing something from my own life, she would rewrite the interpretation and force it on me. Like, what the ever loving f*ck?
It can be so hard to explain to other people. Some would just laugh and dismiss her behavior (my experience) as "junior high" but if you were on the receiving end of her manipulative, controlling actions, it was no joke. It made me mad to see some of the most sweetest, caring people fall for her act. Unless you've been through it, you might not believe it. I now regularly discuss and coach my teen in ways to spot these kind of people. That's my fear... that they'll fall in with an abusive manipulator some day.
Oh my, have you accurately defined Donald Trump!!! I wish every citizen in our country would read your words about this narcissistic sociopath! Great job and thank you for your words!
See Bandy Lee. She wrote and edited a book called THE DANGEROUS CASE OF DONALD TRUMP with other professional psychologists. It was a best seller a few years ago. She had taught at Yale for 17 years but was fired after an APA campaign to discredit her and others. That's why we haven't heard much about this. The true psychiatrist who practiced their duty to warn have been silenced.
Adding to this discussion which is so needed, the “liberal” churches are just as smarmy as the evangelicals and prime for taking by narcissists and, yes, sociopaths. I was married to a narcissist for over 30 years, a church music director/worship leader. He was charming, funny, smart, and seemingly caring, but that was only as long as he was getting the attention and adoration he felt he deserved, particularly from church women. They all loved him and many of them fell into bed with him (unbeknownst to me for decades). He had two dealings with women; either he was seducing them or, if they saw through him, destroying their credibility. When everything finally came out in an incredibly public and humiliating way for ME, I finally walked away. Even then, in months and months of therapy to try and understand how I could have been taken in so completely, I was defending him to my therapist. “Oh, he’s not that bad. He really intends to be a good person. He just makes poor choices, Yada, yada yada.” My therapist stared at me and said, “In other words he’s not an a*^hole. He just acts like one.” BOOM!
I'm so sorry. I am so glad you are free.
Sociopaths exist and can thrive in many different environments. But I do think there's something especially vulnerable about a culture build around a narrow belief set and one that actively discourages critical thought (ie evangelicalism)
I heartily agree. I was in that culture for many years. Churches of many ilks are a breeding and feeding ground for people who prey on others. I’m out, I’m remarried to a wonderful man, and haven’t set foot in a church in years. I think I’m a lot healthier now.
I don't think a "liberal" church is insulated from sociopaths. Just like burglars go around looking for unlocked windows, sociopaths look for high trust institutions. Churches, with their whole reason for being based on forgiveness, trust, kindness, love, etc. are a target rich environment for narcissists and sociopaths.
One protective factor may be that in liberal denominations, women can and do lead both as pastors and lay leaders so one group of adults is not automatically subjugated to another group. You also have some accountability to the wider denomination--you can't just waltz in, declare yourself a pastor and lead a congregation--you have to go to seminary and you have to go through a process to be ordained. In my experience, there are and have been bad people leading congregations, but the blast zone has been relatively smaller---leading a church of a couple hundred people just isn't as attractive to a real narcissist when they could go lead a megachurch and get famous. The downside though is bad pastors can get away with some damaging shit and go on to pastor another congregation because "forgiveness."
I agree up to a point. I have a seminary degree, worked in mainline churches as did he. this ex worked for medium and extremely large churches and he still managed to manipulate and seduce and harass with no accountability. He was allowed to simply quietly resign and NO ONE called him out. NO ONE. After everything exploded he went on with his life and I was the one who had to pick up the pieces of my life. Anyway, my point is that not enough people SPEAK OUT. When it comes up, as with Holly’s piece, I do the speaking up for those of us who were used and thrown aside. I stopped being The Good Wife about 20 yearz ago, LOL.
“this ex worked for medium and extremely large churches and he still managed to manipulate and seduce and harass with no accountability. He was allowed to simply quietly resign and NO ONE called him out. NO ONE.”
I had what I thought was just heartbreak and humiliation over a congregant serving a minor ministry role in a mainline congregation — until I found out that his behavior toward me had just been a sliver of a larger abusive pattern that had already gotten him kicked out of several churches. I was not important enough to warn, apparently?
Fortunately, my romantic heartbreak revolved around my proving less “easy” than he expected, probably — a lucky escape, really. The spiritual heartbreak of church not being a place of shelter from such manipulation was pretty bad, though.
Mainline churches’ greater permissiveness about sex has seemed to cut both ways, at least before #MeToo. On the one hand, earlier sex-education among minors in the congregation leaves them better able to describe abuse and therefore harder targets. That’s good!
On the other hand, lower general expectations of even the pretense of chastity, especially for anyone the least bit “artsy”, can make a pattern of abuse toward non-minors harder to spot. “You’re artsy, he’s artsy. Everyone knows what the artsy are like. Official church teaching might still be, ‘eh, try to wait till marriage,’ but it’s not like anyone takes it that seriously. You’re of age. Why so serious?”
My problem was, fortunately, not with a music minister. As a church musician myself, I have some idea of how bad that could get…
There’s a music prof I know of, who like many musicians, does music ministry on the side because it’s a gig. I haven’t pried much, but he seems to have made himself a… reputation. I once brought a restaurant to a standstill by blurting out a bit louder than I meant, “WELL, THAT WAS RAPEY OF HIM!” in response to a story about his, uh, charms. His “charms” seem not to have been a bar to church employment, though.
Aw, Midge. I can feel your pain. You know, my whole life was church. My dad, a really good man, was a church choir director and I have a Masters Degree in Church Music. It was all an integral part of my life and when I married my now ex I THOUGHT we were partners in music ministry. He needed me. I know that now. I was a prominent soloist in our metropolitan area and my family was a known musical family. He just kind of stepped right in, and I began believing he was more important than I was and….well….a recipe for a narcissistic disaster. Thing is, I also know how bad things with musicians, profs included, can get. I had avoided all of that stuff up until I met my ex. I was 27 for crying out loud and had sidestepped more narcissists than I care to remember, LOL. Anyway, they abound in churches, and particularly in music circles, and I am well away from all of that. When I left my marriage, I gave it all up. Haven’t sung in 20 years and it still gives me heartache and a feeling of loss but I am much happier now. I hope your life is a good one, if now now, some time soon. ❤️
“Haven’t sung in 20 years and it still gives me heartache and a feeling of loss but I am much happier now. I hope your life is a good one, if now now, some time soon.”
Spouse-wise, I’ve done well. Kid-wise, too — though I worry I’m letting my kids down. Body-wise, I was born a bit of a factory reject, nothing too obvious, but my body’s a place of mostly low-level discomfort and awkward episodes of incapacitation. When I was younger, more of that got blamed on my psychology than was accurate, intensifying my shyness.
Guys I knew wanted “a shy girl” to keep their secrets, which was mostly positive and platonic, sometimes an awkward bid at romance from guys who were probably painfully shy themselves, and only that once — alas, in church — heartbreakingly manipulative. (Other heartbreak is so wholesome by comparison.)
As I read more about church sexual abuse, about “purity” being abused to enable rather than restrain predation, I feel more lucky to have been raised in a more egalitarian, cosmopolitan milieu, despite its own post-Freudian excesses.
I admire your fortitude in finding happiness away from singing when it was once your profession, and from church when it had seemed your vocation.
The world is full of wonders, not all of which are music and many of which are not confined to church. I made what I hoped was the sensible choice to study math rather than music or theology, but I find staying away from music ministry, which I’ve had to do since COVID, tough.
Last Good Friday, once again too sick to visit church to hear “my choir” sing, I began composing my own crucifixion oratorio for them. I miss them that much. On the upside, I’m a modestly competent amateur composer, and the church’s musical needs in this respect don’t exceed my ability. The downside: composing anything for others to perform, especially unasked for, has that embarrassing “narcissistic” quality.
Oh well, at least the guys leading music ministry are gayly married to each other and won’t interpret a gal’s “I wrote this for you” as a come-on! It never is, coming from me, but straight guys don’t reliably know that.
I envy your creativity! Good on you! I continued to teach music but in a private school and retired 5 years ago. Then I took up writing which I have always loved. I have had several short stories published in several anthologies, one in Great Britain. My present husband and I just celebrated 17 lovely, loving years together. He is my rock, a deep man who is NOT narcissistic in ANY way. I tell people all the time that sometimes we can be surprised by joy when we least expect it. Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas, whatever! ❤️❤️
I don’t know you. I don’t rate to say this. But you need to start singing again. Even if it’s just being out at home. 👊❤️🙏
If it will help, I’ll tell you God told me to tell you that!! 😂 (Okay, that was horrible church humor -- and a weapon willed against me and so many others -- but seriously, please start singing again. Or at least consider it. Please. ❤️❤️❤️❤️🙏🙏🙏)
While I appreciate your caring comment, I am 78 years old and my singing days are over. The stress of what I went through, the connection of my voice with that, took my voice and my joy in singing. Besides, I promised myself many many years ago that I would stop singing before it got to the place where people wished I would. 🥰🥰
I have known 4 remarkable women pastors and was grateful for each of them who came into my life at the most needed times.
I grew up with a step-dad who had Narcissistic Personality Disorder. He "rescued" my mother & me. When I was a child, my mother told me all he wanted was to be admired, and if I would do that, it would go easier for me. I had no trouble seeing what Trump was. As a church pastor now, I do not get it, how ostensibly Christian people could believe the things they do about Trump, how they can't see right through him. Experience is a brutal teacher, but thorough
I'm so sorry, living with an NPD person can really mess with your head. I'm sure it's been a long journey for you. Painful but valuable experience to share with your congregation, no doubt. Thank you for sharing.
Having been married to one for over 30 years, I can totally sympathize. And bc don’t get me started on Trump and his cultic idolizers who claim to be Christian. You CANNOT be a real follower of Jesus and worship Trump and America the way they do. You just can’t.
Terrible that your mom would enable him like that.
Trump clearly falls into the sociopath/malignant narcissist bucket, but I don't think you can really understand the extent of his success unless you think in terms of spiritual forces of wickedness or darkness. If you read the temptation narratives in the Bible--the one where the snake shows up and talks Eve into eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge, and the one where Satan shows up to tempt Jesus in the wilderness, it is hard for me not to think about Trump being the tempter. He's just so effective at getting people to give into their worst impulses. He loves money and power and all that, but he loves pitting people against each other and getting them to tear each other down even more than he loves power.
I probably sound like a religious nut, but I promise you I am not--hard to be too nutty if you are an Episcopalian--but even if you are an unbeliever, the Bible has some great insights into the human condition, and the idea of Trump as a destroyer and an opposer works on both the spiritual and the practical level.
I love your perspective. A friend of mine from church was talking with a woman who got off onto the subject of politics and said, “Trump is a man of God!“ My friend’s appalled reply was to blurt, “I think Trump is a tool of Satan!” And I think my friend is quite right.
Trump is the wolf in sheep's clothing. The Bible is riddled with references to evil dressed up as good and how humans fall for it over and over and over. For us who are not tempted by him, it's hard to understand how people can be taken in.
Hope I can remember that line for future use.
I too firmly believe that trump is so far removed from normal human behavior that it's hard for me to see him as being human at all. No natural affections, no pets, no fellowship, absolutely no humor -- repellant to those who have failed to fall under his spell. I pray that, as a nation, we learn enough from this experience that, over time, we can absorb the lessons learned and become more vigilant on the one hand, and more grateful on the other.
Trump himself loves to quote the poem, "The Snake," comparing himself to a snake that blames its rescuer for her death at the snake's hands (or fangs).
So creepy! I dated someone who illustrated his character by relaying the story of the kindly frog who carries the scorpion across the river as a favor, and the scorpion stings him anyway after the lift. That's been a hard lesson for me to learn. Holly is such a gifted writer.
My husband and I grew up in NY while Trump was doing whatever he could to land on Page 6. He was considered a joke. So when he came down that escalator, it seemed crazy to us. And as it looked like he’d be the nominee, we kept wondering what the heck is wrong with all you people? Can’t you see he’s a narcissistic fraud? As you note, along with our national inability to imagine such shamelessness, we also seem to be severely lacking in the ability to engage in critical thinking. I think we were ripe for someone like him. It’s kind of surprising to me that we haven’t had this happen more often.
You have such a gift, Holly. Truly.
This is just such an insightful article. Thank you for sharing it.
And I'd probably pay good money to just talk faith and religion with you someday lol.
Speaking for myself, I am back in love with my faith, but I've been stomped by the church enough to know to be wary, questioning, etc.
Yet there is no doubt that Donald Trump has nearly single-handedly done more than nearly destroy our country. He had pretty much destroyed evangelical churches. (See Tim Alberta's experience -- or just go visit your nearest one lol)
And the horrifically frustrating thing about all this is that now that I'm back insanely in love with God and trying to walk the path, it just blows my mind how anyone can read the Bible for long (at all) and turn their worship and focus from God and the Bible to politics/FoxNews and Trump.
It's borderline blasphemy, and I can't help but think that God must weep that so many have been led astray by this worship and idolatry of Trump.
Just finished Tim's book. Very good. I'm happy to hear you are finding joy and meaning in your faith. That's great.
I'm still trying to decide whether to read it. I've heard him on two full podcast interviews, and read almost all his articles for the past year or two, so do you think there's still enough meat on the bones to make it worth reading?
What a terrible story of his with how he was treated at his Dad's funeral. (My word, can I relate to that kind of church pressure and antagonism... Not that you have time or are probably interested, but in the long-shot chance that you are: https://stanrmitchell8.substack.com/about)
I would recommend that you read the book. Usually you can get the meat if you listen to the author do the podcast circuit, but in this particular case the book has layers that just don't show up even with the long and careful interviews of Tim that I heard on the Bulwark, the Dispatch, etc.
I did the audiobook which was narrated by the author. Worth every penny and every minute.
Deal. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah, one of them was The Bulwark, and I can’t even remember the other. I listen to so many. 😩😂
Nothing borderline about it, Stan. What is going on in so much of evangelicalism is heretical and downright idolatrous. The Body of Christ has been grievously wounded.
Thank you for putting words to what so many of us have felt intuitively but have been unable to express. From here on, when someone asks me why I’m so opposed to another Trump term, I will refer them to this post. Thanks for having the courage to put this into the world for the rest of us.
Precisely. This post nails it! And I think it's because it's done obliquely. It starts out with a family situation, which so many of us can relate to (or have seen).
Thanks for this, Holly. I think most psychiatrists, counselors & therapists who saw thru Trump felt bound by their professional oaths not to diagnose someone who was not a patient (Goldwater Rule). I know some of these folks later signed and circulated a letter naming Trump as mentally unstable and begging voters not to support him. The letter was reprinted in some newspapers and online.
In my experience, one ‘tell’ is if one is conversing, all the words are ostensibly normal, but as the interaction continues, one gets an inescapable sense of dread that something is radically wrong with the interaction and the person.
Fell into the trap twice, needed therapy on both occasions. Fortunately, the second time I recovered more quickly because I had a much better understanding of what was being done to me. Now, when I recognize a set of behaviors showing themselves, I do my best to disengage as soon as possible. And I finally married a good woman who doesn't behave like a sociopath. Therapy for the win!
Good for you Bart. We hope Tom might eventually be in a healthy relationship.
Okay, well, here are the 2 things that I learned growing up that I still think are true: 1. you have to learn how to recognize a true a**hole (when my father taught me this, he was not the self-censoring type on this one). Everything that you described may have a lot of other terms, but a man who is most of those things is an a**hole; a man who is all of those things is a "perfect a**hole." Do everything possible not to deal with them as they are "vexatious to the spirit" (from the Desiderata). 2. When anyone tells you they are one of "God's Chosen," one of the true believers, use Matthew 25: 31-40 as a checklist/ measuring stick. If they don't measure out, they aren't what they say they are whether they think they are or not. And here is the 3rd thing I learned since I have grown up: women have become just as good at being a**holes as men; times have changed since my father was alive.
Women have always been a**holes, society has just curtailed and influenced expression.
That, but also until the mass entry of women into the labor force in the early 1970s it wasn't as publicly visible. But with increasing opportunity and authority came that visibility.
I can attest, this is truth! Interesting that those of us personally impacted jump into research and learn the scary stuff. But those who have not personally experienced it have a hard time understanding. It almost makes me want a lot more people to experience it (not really, but you know what I mean!), so we have a large army of people standing against those causing such menace 😕
As I read this I had another thought. Please forgive my cynicism--I’m not religious so I’m probably showing my bias here--but I think seeing a bunch of hypocrisy from religious leaders over the last couple of decades primed the pump for someone like Trump to co-opt the evangelicals too. They were ready and willing to forgive him each time he showed that he doesn’t share their values. The Access Hollywood tape, the 3 wives, “Two Corinthians,” and on and on, because they’d seen people like Jim Baker and others. And, let’s face it, admitting you’ve been wrong is hard because of that whole shame thing, right?
Hearing some of your all stories reminds me of some I've had the misfortune to experience. One who ended up marrying and murdering another friend, one who was a "friend" who turned into an evil force when I wasn't acting, thinking, ortreating her exactly as she thought I should. If I was describing something from my own life, she would rewrite the interpretation and force it on me. Like, what the ever loving f*ck?
It can be so hard to explain to other people. Some would just laugh and dismiss her behavior (my experience) as "junior high" but if you were on the receiving end of her manipulative, controlling actions, it was no joke. It made me mad to see some of the most sweetest, caring people fall for her act. Unless you've been through it, you might not believe it. I now regularly discuss and coach my teen in ways to spot these kind of people. That's my fear... that they'll fall in with an abusive manipulator some day.
Oh my, have you accurately defined Donald Trump!!! I wish every citizen in our country would read your words about this narcissistic sociopath! Great job and thank you for your words!
See Bandy Lee. She wrote and edited a book called THE DANGEROUS CASE OF DONALD TRUMP with other professional psychologists. It was a best seller a few years ago. She had taught at Yale for 17 years but was fired after an APA campaign to discredit her and others. That's why we haven't heard much about this. The true psychiatrist who practiced their duty to warn have been silenced.
She is a patriot and was spot on. That case definitely had a chilling effect. The APA needs to revise its standards imo.
Absolutely!
I've met a few of these people irl, and each time their natures were clear to me within moments. Never wanted to be in a room alone with them.
People are basically sheep, especially, it seems evident, evangelicals