“And, from my more imaginative conspiratorial brain--was this entire thing a bait-and-switch, gateway-drug-ruse to pull in the money and participation of decent, normal people in order to launder pernicious (and definitely not perspicacious2) insanity?”
Yes. I would not trust a damn thing I heard from any in that group. By the way, Candace Owens is married to George Farmer, the son of Michael Farmer, Baron Farmer, prominent British conservative and evangelical. George used to run Turning Point UK. (Owens and G. Farmer are Catholic, I suspect, rather in the style of JD Vance). I mention the Owens-Farmer group b/c my sense is that the world of British conservative Christians is pretty small and they all know & interact with each other. On the other hand, I have seen good things said about Michael Farmer, who appears to be perceived as sincere in his beliefs rather than grifting.
Thank you Holly for sharing your experience with this weird organization. And good for you for not getting lured into it because the people there sound posh.
Then he missed your value. Not just because I’m sure you’re a charming conversationalist but in a very real sense. I think part of his uneasiness in recent years comes from an inability to reckon with conservatism in the same way you were able to reckon with evangelicalism. At least that’s my opinion.
My puns and TSwift lyrics are always intentional ;) I’ve been listening to that particular song because it fits my current mood regarding this election.
C'mon, we all know David Brooks is just another entitled privileged white man who wouldn't stand a chance in a society based on equality. Same with Arthur Brooks. I'm sure there are lovely people out there who are not named Brooks! One test I use is the charter school test. Anyone who promotes charter schools in the U.S. clearly does not understand the role of public education in our democracy, and the need to have publicly-elected school boards governing them. Another test is the abortion test. Only supporting early abortions for survivors of rape and incest fails the test, and calling every abortion a difficult or sad decision fails the test. There's also the Viagra test--should health insurance, including Medicare, pay for Viagra? and not abortions or birth control? Creating these secret tests is fun! the Brooks Bros (not really brothers, but bros) probably fail. Wishing you a much better social life!
I don’t know much about Arthur Brooks, but I have loved much of Davids writing, especially his last book. I think he’s a very good writer. But honestly this episode confused me. 🤷♀️
Here’s the closest I can come to a parallel situation.
In 1990 I was in LA, wandering around in general and more specifically, wandering through the metal clubs in what was, in retrospect, the twilight of the whole scene. On my final night there, I went to a thrash show on a Sunday night at Gazzari’s on the Sunset Strip. I’d been immersed in the hair metal scene my whole time in LA and opted for something much heavier to end the trip. I wandered in, ordered a beer from a bartenders who looked at me strangely (ok, whatever) and found a place to stand. The next band cam on, played a song, then the vocalist went on a rant about sinners going to hell or some such shit, and I immediately realized I’d wandering into one of those extreme Christian metal shows. It was quite the rant and it did go on. I looked around and I was the only one with a beer and a cigarette (it was 1990 after all), and everyone was neatly dressed and crisply coiffed. I missed all these very obvious “what’s off here” signs because I was stoned and executing my mission of getting a beer and finding a good spot to stand for the show. I stayed for a second beer (I was already there, stoned and there was no third reason). Then I went to the Rainbow, which was next door (or almost). Lenny from Motörhead was probably there. I flew home the next day. Looking at the ad for the show in the local weekly after I got home, the bands all had names like “Deliverence”, which really wasn’t a reliable as heuristic back then.
OK, so now that I’ve typed all this I realize it’s even less like your situation than when I started.
Fun fact: Bill Gazzari of Gazzari’s fame was immortalized in Penelope Shpeeris’ “Decline of Western Civilization Part 2: the Metal Years”
I might give David Brooks the benefit of the doubt re. why he’s there. If we ask ourselves whether evangelicalism does more harm than good and the answer is yes then is it really worth saving? If we follow the work of Kristin DuMez including her new For Our Daughters film, Susan Stankorb’s Disobedient Women and the courageous work of Christa Brown and so many other survivors, it looks like the harm is still continuing in a very real way. They deserve every bit of support we can offer.
Yes, it is a time of choosing. And you choose your words very well, Holly.
I'd flatter you more about the obvious accuracy of your moral and ethical compasses and your skills at choosing the right words to talk about them, but I'm late for the pickleball game that's starting up on deck and am just hoping that big ugly guy with the keys to my shackles gets down here before the whole thing's all over with. Been a while since I've seen the sun, ya' know.
A delightful read embedded with so much wisdom. As usual, you get to the heart of the matter. All good but this struck a deep chord in me.
“I constantly hear from more ordinary anti-Trump evangelicals a general lament about the state of American society, our “toxic politics” (the implication being that both sides are equally to blame), all the "lostness" out there, the increasing alienation of most Americans from “good Christian values,” the infection of the church by the values of "the world." There's little reflection on how evangelicalism itself--including its core theologies, particularly related to scriptural interpretation--has made its devotees susceptible to the kind of corruption and delusion Trump has unleashed.”
Go Holly Go! But wow, what an interesting twisty story and can't even imagine how you managed to engage with that, yeah I get the David Brooks thing, but still, holy crow. Folks like that just give me the willies. I tend to opt out. You're a brave soul.
This may be the only comment I get to leave...for now. After the election, I over extended myself in subscriptions. Forgive me for being a media-leech; you do deserve compensation. I am anxious to read your book when comes out. But atleast allow me to extend a 'Thank you'. Both for your candid opinion written here about evangelicalism - which I grew up in as well - deep in it, as son of a high-ranking pastor and bishop. And...for introducing me to this thing called 'substack'. Since reading your posts I started noticing substack writers referenced elsewhere. (I now even noticed David Brooks references comments from substack writters - he and I have a tepid relationship unfortunately.) I was looking for something like this place, thinking I would have to set up my own blogsite. I have come to hate social media, especially public commenting. So I may myself someday write here...but probably more for only myself 🙈.
I found this particular post by way of a year-end summary link your email service sent me today.
I'll just say this. At first, and since 2016, I was just awestruck how evangelicals (using the term generically) could vote for and embrace (and even admire...idolize?) such a despicable human as Donald Trump. But FINALLY, something clicked in my brain recently. Maybe you and others realized it way before me. I see these worshipers differently now. I will no longer let my old fashion perspective of the gospel message bias me into thinking these people share the same. I recognize now the whole evangelical approach to intolerant theology as the 'solely choosen and appointed' was/is built on the same theology as Donald Trump, disguised as 'christian'. No wonder the elite would embrace it too - it mirrors what they thought of themselves all along. And it's good business. And for the sheep...the message of fear, of guilt, of self-righteousness since all others are wrong, and prosperity hope: no, guaranteed - that's what they have being eating all along. (What do they say? Paraphrased...What you eat is what you become.) It's all familiar stuff. It fits their world view like a glove. It prepared those minds to accept this MAGA message fully. You might even say it vindicates their identity. I see it reflected in my parents attitude - now both decesed. I see it in how I was raised. How the gospel was preached. How I became the black sheep because I dared to go to college. How I became labeled as 'new age' , or 'indoctrinated', because I dared to debate what was being preached vs lived. To call-out the dark comments and opinions privately shared which did not seem to reflect what was written in the Bible, or said publically. I see it in church congragations, both then and now. The segregation. There seems a void yet wider now - I noticed it after attending my church of youth for a couple of the last years. An unaknowledged, but obvious (to me) detachment from what was being preached...even by the preachers. The spirit of God feels more faint in these churches, but everyone feels joy to declare Trump their leader. It was always there.
Now I understand. And the nature of humankind is as evident there in the pews as it is all around the world. 'Tolerance' is a bad word now; 'subjugation' is the true calling. What circles we run in, and yet never notice.
Merry Christmas Ms. Fletcher, celebrated with whom and however way you enjoy. May still our acknowledgement of truth diminish a bit the darkness of these times we find ourselves.
It's a special point of shame for me that my state has imposed both JD Vance and Vivek Ramaswamy on the rest of the country during this election cycle. Mea culpa.
The Rooster primarily follows our Statehouse crew (they keep him quite busy), but there's always time for features on our two fellas in the national spotlight.
“And, from my more imaginative conspiratorial brain--was this entire thing a bait-and-switch, gateway-drug-ruse to pull in the money and participation of decent, normal people in order to launder pernicious (and definitely not perspicacious2) insanity?”
Yes. I would not trust a damn thing I heard from any in that group. By the way, Candace Owens is married to George Farmer, the son of Michael Farmer, Baron Farmer, prominent British conservative and evangelical. George used to run Turning Point UK. (Owens and G. Farmer are Catholic, I suspect, rather in the style of JD Vance). I mention the Owens-Farmer group b/c my sense is that the world of British conservative Christians is pretty small and they all know & interact with each other. On the other hand, I have seen good things said about Michael Farmer, who appears to be perceived as sincere in his beliefs rather than grifting.
Fascinating, i have never heard of the Farmer family.
One day I came across a reference to Candace marrying a Baron’s son, which seemed so nuts I had to follow down the rabbit hole.
AND… Australia just banned Candace Owen for hate speech towards just about everybody, per CNN
Thank you Holly for sharing your experience with this weird organization. And good for you for not getting lured into it because the people there sound posh.
Poor David Brooks…missed out on the best thing at that party. His loss.
Love the (unintentional?) Taylor Swift ref 🫶 but he didn’t miss it per se, he just didn’t enjoy it 😂
Then he missed your value. Not just because I’m sure you’re a charming conversationalist but in a very real sense. I think part of his uneasiness in recent years comes from an inability to reckon with conservatism in the same way you were able to reckon with evangelicalism. At least that’s my opinion.
My puns and TSwift lyrics are always intentional ;) I’ve been listening to that particular song because it fits my current mood regarding this election.
Peterson gives me The Ick. As a Canadian I’d rather not claim him.
C'mon, we all know David Brooks is just another entitled privileged white man who wouldn't stand a chance in a society based on equality. Same with Arthur Brooks. I'm sure there are lovely people out there who are not named Brooks! One test I use is the charter school test. Anyone who promotes charter schools in the U.S. clearly does not understand the role of public education in our democracy, and the need to have publicly-elected school boards governing them. Another test is the abortion test. Only supporting early abortions for survivors of rape and incest fails the test, and calling every abortion a difficult or sad decision fails the test. There's also the Viagra test--should health insurance, including Medicare, pay for Viagra? and not abortions or birth control? Creating these secret tests is fun! the Brooks Bros (not really brothers, but bros) probably fail. Wishing you a much better social life!
I don’t know much about Arthur Brooks, but I have loved much of Davids writing, especially his last book. I think he’s a very good writer. But honestly this episode confused me. 🤷♀️
This is a very strange matter. Full of conspiracies and such.
Here’s the closest I can come to a parallel situation.
In 1990 I was in LA, wandering around in general and more specifically, wandering through the metal clubs in what was, in retrospect, the twilight of the whole scene. On my final night there, I went to a thrash show on a Sunday night at Gazzari’s on the Sunset Strip. I’d been immersed in the hair metal scene my whole time in LA and opted for something much heavier to end the trip. I wandered in, ordered a beer from a bartenders who looked at me strangely (ok, whatever) and found a place to stand. The next band cam on, played a song, then the vocalist went on a rant about sinners going to hell or some such shit, and I immediately realized I’d wandering into one of those extreme Christian metal shows. It was quite the rant and it did go on. I looked around and I was the only one with a beer and a cigarette (it was 1990 after all), and everyone was neatly dressed and crisply coiffed. I missed all these very obvious “what’s off here” signs because I was stoned and executing my mission of getting a beer and finding a good spot to stand for the show. I stayed for a second beer (I was already there, stoned and there was no third reason). Then I went to the Rainbow, which was next door (or almost). Lenny from Motörhead was probably there. I flew home the next day. Looking at the ad for the show in the local weekly after I got home, the bands all had names like “Deliverence”, which really wasn’t a reliable as heuristic back then.
OK, so now that I’ve typed all this I realize it’s even less like your situation than when I started.
Fun fact: Bill Gazzari of Gazzari’s fame was immortalized in Penelope Shpeeris’ “Decline of Western Civilization Part 2: the Metal Years”
Lol 😂 this is hysterically funny
I might give David Brooks the benefit of the doubt re. why he’s there. If we ask ourselves whether evangelicalism does more harm than good and the answer is yes then is it really worth saving? If we follow the work of Kristin DuMez including her new For Our Daughters film, Susan Stankorb’s Disobedient Women and the courageous work of Christa Brown and so many other survivors, it looks like the harm is still continuing in a very real way. They deserve every bit of support we can offer.
Yes, it is a time of choosing. And you choose your words very well, Holly.
I'd flatter you more about the obvious accuracy of your moral and ethical compasses and your skills at choosing the right words to talk about them, but I'm late for the pickleball game that's starting up on deck and am just hoping that big ugly guy with the keys to my shackles gets down here before the whole thing's all over with. Been a while since I've seen the sun, ya' know.
A delightful read embedded with so much wisdom. As usual, you get to the heart of the matter. All good but this struck a deep chord in me.
“I constantly hear from more ordinary anti-Trump evangelicals a general lament about the state of American society, our “toxic politics” (the implication being that both sides are equally to blame), all the "lostness" out there, the increasing alienation of most Americans from “good Christian values,” the infection of the church by the values of "the world." There's little reflection on how evangelicalism itself--including its core theologies, particularly related to scriptural interpretation--has made its devotees susceptible to the kind of corruption and delusion Trump has unleashed.”
Go Holly Go! But wow, what an interesting twisty story and can't even imagine how you managed to engage with that, yeah I get the David Brooks thing, but still, holy crow. Folks like that just give me the willies. I tend to opt out. You're a brave soul.
This may be the only comment I get to leave...for now. After the election, I over extended myself in subscriptions. Forgive me for being a media-leech; you do deserve compensation. I am anxious to read your book when comes out. But atleast allow me to extend a 'Thank you'. Both for your candid opinion written here about evangelicalism - which I grew up in as well - deep in it, as son of a high-ranking pastor and bishop. And...for introducing me to this thing called 'substack'. Since reading your posts I started noticing substack writers referenced elsewhere. (I now even noticed David Brooks references comments from substack writters - he and I have a tepid relationship unfortunately.) I was looking for something like this place, thinking I would have to set up my own blogsite. I have come to hate social media, especially public commenting. So I may myself someday write here...but probably more for only myself 🙈.
I found this particular post by way of a year-end summary link your email service sent me today.
I'll just say this. At first, and since 2016, I was just awestruck how evangelicals (using the term generically) could vote for and embrace (and even admire...idolize?) such a despicable human as Donald Trump. But FINALLY, something clicked in my brain recently. Maybe you and others realized it way before me. I see these worshipers differently now. I will no longer let my old fashion perspective of the gospel message bias me into thinking these people share the same. I recognize now the whole evangelical approach to intolerant theology as the 'solely choosen and appointed' was/is built on the same theology as Donald Trump, disguised as 'christian'. No wonder the elite would embrace it too - it mirrors what they thought of themselves all along. And it's good business. And for the sheep...the message of fear, of guilt, of self-righteousness since all others are wrong, and prosperity hope: no, guaranteed - that's what they have being eating all along. (What do they say? Paraphrased...What you eat is what you become.) It's all familiar stuff. It fits their world view like a glove. It prepared those minds to accept this MAGA message fully. You might even say it vindicates their identity. I see it reflected in my parents attitude - now both decesed. I see it in how I was raised. How the gospel was preached. How I became the black sheep because I dared to go to college. How I became labeled as 'new age' , or 'indoctrinated', because I dared to debate what was being preached vs lived. To call-out the dark comments and opinions privately shared which did not seem to reflect what was written in the Bible, or said publically. I see it in church congragations, both then and now. The segregation. There seems a void yet wider now - I noticed it after attending my church of youth for a couple of the last years. An unaknowledged, but obvious (to me) detachment from what was being preached...even by the preachers. The spirit of God feels more faint in these churches, but everyone feels joy to declare Trump their leader. It was always there.
Now I understand. And the nature of humankind is as evident there in the pews as it is all around the world. 'Tolerance' is a bad word now; 'subjugation' is the true calling. What circles we run in, and yet never notice.
Merry Christmas Ms. Fletcher, celebrated with whom and however way you enjoy. May still our acknowledgement of truth diminish a bit the darkness of these times we find ourselves.
Here's a treat for you from an Ohio blogger I follow (https://www.rooster.info/p/vivek-ramaswamy-rooster).
It's a special point of shame for me that my state has imposed both JD Vance and Vivek Ramaswamy on the rest of the country during this election cycle. Mea culpa.
The Rooster primarily follows our Statehouse crew (they keep him quite busy), but there's always time for features on our two fellas in the national spotlight.